Comment on part (1): What is the proof of the 4 above facts?
The Proof:
Although you agreed on first one, but I will approve them all for you, so to be clear:
Fact 1: Living Human = Human body + Human Spirit
Let’s see what is the difference between living and dead human being?
Very obvious that there is a difference, if maybe not clear to someone, then he must do the following:
Go to a cemetery and stand in front of a tomb (has a dead person inside for sure) and start insulting him: I WILL………. nothing will happen of course.
Now, walk to street and choose a very strong man and say to him the same thing: I WILL...., of course something big will happen.
So there is a difference, which will name it as variable “X”, and added it to the living body because it produced energy more than the dead body.
Therefore,
Dead Human = Human Body
Living Human = Human Body + X
Subtract both equation will get = Living – Dead = (Body – Body) + X = X only.
Therefore, that the difference between Living and Dead is only X, this X is called (since when? I don’t know really) = Human spirit…
So Fact 1 is correct:
Living Human = Human body + Human Spirit.
Ok, let’s see the next one.
Question: Does anyone of you remember in which grade that spirit came and join him when he was in school? Maybe 1st grade, 2nd grade…
But wait it must be earlier, because if it joined you in school then you must be a dead body before that, as we proved that above, so if you born alive then obviously the spirit joined you inside your mother womb, unless they created you in a lab and then inserted you “as human being not cells” inside your mother’s womb like in MATRIX, but I don’t think that we reach such technology yet.
Therefore Fact 2 is also correct:
Human spirit joins the body inside mother’s womb.
I will jump now to Fact 4 then return to Fact 3:
This X or what we call it “spirit”, is physically a substance and has a weight of course, in1907 Dr. Duncan MacDougall measured it by weighing a dying person, he put him and his bed on a scale and weighed them, and just on the moment that this person died, his weight reduced by ¾ of ounce (i.e. 21 gram approx).
So, if we have a substance that is 21 gram of weight going out from a dying person, then it’s whether heavier than air or lighter than air.
In case heavier, the spirit must not go up and it must fall and stay on the ground, and obviously as any substance heavier than air someone must see it on ground, but did you ever see a dead spirit on ground !!
Because then they have to clean it every time someone dies, they will call someone to come and remove this spirit from ground which obviously never done before (because personally I didn’t see spirit stuck on earth and someone clean it).
Let’s take another option, lighter than air then it will go up, which also obvious for all substances and gazes that flow up in the air and they have one thing common which they can’t be seen by human eyes this means that this option is correct too.
Q- Someone may ask; why then to heaven and won’t stop in something like stuck or being absorbed by a plant or star in the way?
Since, spirit is similar to gas natural, mostly it will not affect by the surrounding gravity of stars or planets, as obviously you can’t drag a gas by magnetic..
So, Fact 4 is also correct:
When human dies, the spirit ascends to heaven.
Finally Fact 3:
Since Fact 3 is the inverse of Fact 4 state, then it will be in inverse direction and it is also correct:
3. Spirit descends from Heaven to join the infant.
Therefore, the 4 facts are totally correct, scientifically and logically.
Hope this is clear for you.
Additional comment on the Debate
As you mentioned below by your own words as following:
- The alive one has all these processes running more or less smoothly.
- While a dead one has had one or more of the processes impeded to a point where other processes have shut down in reaction.
Answer:
Exactly, imagine that failure that you are talking about above that casing the difference between running processor and dead one is electricity, one running because there is electricity and one is not running because there is no electricity.
For human we don’t work on Electricity, we call it SPIRIT.
Note, If you want you can still call it for you own use: HUMARIECTY = Human + Electricity instead of SPIRIT.
Short Film on Spirit Departure:
The following video shows spirit departure of a dying person, taken by special Camera that shows body temperature loss in each of his body parts.
This film matches what is mentioned by the Islamic resources about the departure of human spirit that:
1- It leaves body legs and hands first.
2- It goes out from human mouth, and the small flame appeared on person mouth is Spirit temperature and not his breathing.
3- The eyes are the last part of the body that spirit leaves, and this what Prophet told us that eyes keep following spirit ascending to heaven till it leaves completely the body.
The film is Arabic in the beginning, but the most important is the following part:
Response in three parts due to character limit.
ReplyDeleteFact 1:
Living Human = Human body + Human Spirit
Incorrect.
All you have shown is that a living human requires more than just decomposing (or decomposed) flesh. You call this extra component 'X', then assume that X requires a human spirit.
No. In our case, X would comprise several things, such as an active metabolism and brain function. It's a very large step to get from 'brain function' to 'human spirit'.
Your conclusion for Fact 1 is not warranted by your argument.
Fact 2:
Human spirit joins the body inside mother’s womb.
Without Fact 1 as a supporting foundation, Fact 2 can easily be dismissed.
That said, there's still some counter-evidence to consider.
First of all, what about genetic twins?
In the case of genetic twins, a single embryo splits to become two. What has happened here? Did an extra soul get injected after the moment of conception? Or does each twin have half a soul? Or do both individuals share the same soul?
Similarly, consider the case of a genetic chimera such as David Bowie. In the case of these individuals, two genetically dissimilar embryos within the mother's womb merge to become a single individual. A common symptom of this is someone with differently colored eyes, as each eye is descended from a lineage that came from a different embryo.
So what happens with genetic chimeras? Does one of the souls cease to exist? Did each embryo start with half a soul? Or do genetic chimeras have two souls? In this instance perhaps David Bowie isn't the best example, because he's awesome... But all the same, these questions to do with the arithmetic of souls cannot be satisfied by your current argument.
Contrast this against metabolism and brain function: These things slowly and gradually ramp up during fetal development over the course of nine months. Once we have one (or two) functioning, thinking, experiencing individuals - then we have living humans. A far more sensible fits with the data.
1/3
Fact 4:
ReplyDeleteWhen human dies, the spirit ascends to heaven.
In Dr. Duncan MacDougall's own words:
"I am aware that a large number of experiments would require to be made before the matter can be proved beyond any possibility of error, but if further and sufficient experimentation proves that there is a loss of substance occurring at death and not accounted for by known channels of loss, the establishment of such a truth cannot fail to be of the utmost importance."
- MacDougall, Duncan. "The Soul: Hypothesis Concerning Soul Substance Together with Experimental Evidence of The Existence of Such Substance."
American Medicine. April 1907.
Dr. Duncan MacDougall's experiment has not been successfully replicated. On top of that, his sample size was very small, his methodology is suspect and discarded results that did not fit his hypothesis.
Further reading here:
http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp
Fact 3:
Spirit descends from Heaven to join the infant.
Your only justification for this was to point at Fact 4 and claim that it works the other way.
That alone is insufficient anyway given the assumptions involved.
However to make it worse, your 'Fact 4' isn't justified to begin with. You've cited only a highly dubious scientific study - small sample size, discarded data, and results that have not been replicated.
2/3
In Summary:
ReplyDelete1)
To label the difference between a dead human body and a living one as 'X' is fine. But to then name that label 'Human Spirit' is not fine - it draws in a host of unjustified metaphysical assumptions.
You have not established Fact 1.
2)
While it's accurate to suggest that thought and experience develop within the womb as the nervous system begins to develop in the fetus, it is similarly disingenuous to try and label this as 'human spirit' for all the reasons above. The use of this label drags in many metaphysical assumptions that are unwarranted by the available data.
3) and 4)
The original experiment that reportedly demonstrated that souls have weight was dubious. It has small sample sizes, suspect methodology, results that didn't fit the hypothesis were discarded, and it has not been replicated.
Your attempt to show that your claims for 3 and 4 are 'facts' is unsuccessful.
3/3
Dear Daniel,
ReplyDeleteThe good thing that you agreed that there is “X” between a living body and a dead body, but you don’t know what it is?
And you refused to call it Spirit, and you didn’t give any other solution, and by refusing this fact, simply you will refuse the rest since they all depend on this fact.
If the word “Spirit” hurts you, then you can replace it by “X” descends or “X” ascends, “X” joins, and “X” separates, etc... And for the twins, simply 2 “X’s” join each body.
And for the cat that gave birth for 8 kittens, then 8 X’s join them, each “X” in each body, simply as it’s.. Hope this answer your questions.
But, do you know why “Atheist” don’t believe that Humans have spirits?
Because it destroys all their beliefs, Spirit is still can’t be directly tested by scientific experiments, and being exist then it is created by God Only, and this what means that all their beliefs are simply nothing, so they prefer to deny its existence.
Hey Abdallah.
ReplyDeleteI hope you don't mind, but I think I'm going to have to not respond to everything you said. I have just written 1,300 words in response to you, and that's too much. You shouldn't have to read an essay every time I post, it's exhausting.
So I've trimmed it down to the bare essentials. If I seem to have overlooked something, please just ask about it. Chances are I had a response but had to cut it out for the sake of brevity.
"The good thing that you agreed that there is “X” between a living body and a dead body, but you don’t know what it is?
And you refused to call it Spirit, and you didn’t give any other solution, and by refusing this fact, simply you will refuse the rest since they all depend on this fact."
For the first two paragraphs: I did actually specify what I think 'X' is - the difference between a living and dead human being. But in hindsight I didn't draw particularly strong attention to it. I should have been clearer.
I consider 'X' to be an active metabolism and brain function.
My understanding is that as the cells in the embryo grow, divide and specialize there is a gradual increase in structure and function, eventually including a functioning nervous system. The transition from embryo to fetus to infant is a gradual one - but the entirety of the process can be understood in terms of the growth and division of cells. Nothing magical needs to be added at any point in the process - 'X' is already covered by metabolism and neurological development.
"If the word “Spirit” hurts you, then you can replace it by “X” descends or “X” ascends, “X” joins, and “X” separates, etc... And for the twins, simply 2 “X’s” join each body."
I can't say that the word 'spirit' hurts me, exactly. I do find it annoying.
I consider 'spirit' to be a meaningless term. It makes people feel warm and fuzzy, but that's about it. (justification clipped)
The term also slips in a whole host of metaphysical and epistemic assumptions through the side-door without justifying them first. I consider this to be something of a cheating move.
Two key assumptions that the term attempts to smuggle in are:
a) Biology alone is somehow insufficient to explain human embryonic development
b) There must be some magical 'thing' that is introduced into the system from 'another place' in order to fully explain it.
I consider a) and b) to be unjustified at best, false at worst.
Hmm... Actually, I couldn't hold back on this one. It's important - both in your conversation with me, but also in any conversations you have on these subjects with atheists in the future. Please pay attention to this post carefully.
ReplyDelete"But, do you know why “Atheist” don’t believe that Humans have spirits?"
I had to take a deep breath before this one. I'm sure you didn't intend to come across the way it did. This kind of argument from theists is something I've heard far too often, and prompts something of a knee-jerk emotional reaction in me.
Put yourself in my shoes - consider how that final paragraph of yours must sound, how it must make me feel.
Consider the claim below. Note that I am not making this claim, I don't accept it and I consider it to be false. But I just want to use it by way of an example.
Men choose to believe in Allah is because sexual frustration leads them to a desire sex with many young and inexperienced women as a means of coping with their means of inadequacy. Islam appeals to such young men through the promise of being rewarded with seventy-two virgins in the next life.
I expect that the above claim would probably bother you - and rightly so. It's prejudiced, insulting, closed-minded, and it divests Muslim men of any sense of intellect or concern for the attainment of objective truth.
In a similar fashion, I've reacted to your final paragraph with the same strongly negative emotions. I think some of those emotions are justified in this situation - but as I'm sure that none of t was intended on your part, I've managed to keep these emotions in check.
Now, to put the record straight: I am an atheist. I don't claim to speak for all atheists - only myself... But I also suspect that you won't find my approach to this question to be atypical.
The reason I think that humans don't have souls is because:
a) I see no evidence for them, and
b) The likelihood of spirits existing seems highly implausible given everything else that we currently know about biology, neurology and psychology (I can provide examples on request - trying to avoid a huge wall of text).
That's it. End of the story. If hard evidence does come to light that I'm wrong, and it can be replicated across the board by other reputable scientists, then I'll accept that finding and update my view accordingly.
Dear My Friend Daniel,
ReplyDeleteI don’t know mind to debate as much as you want on any of my posts, as much as you are using polite language, so feel free to comment any where any time, “debating” is my hobby…
About your theory that “spirit or X is active metabolism and brain function.”, for me this is the result of the spirit not the main cause, means “Spirit” is causing these functions to run, similarly the electricity in your laptop causes the CPU to run its functions, but not these functions are the main cause that switches it ON.
You can test your theory, by freezing a living human being instantly, while its functions were all running including active metabolism and brain function, into -50degree for few days or weeks, then defrost him again, and you are sure here that he didn’t lose any of his functions and nothing entered on his body or lost from him, and after defrosting him, let’s see if he will live again or not?
(Obviously he will be dead long time before, so please don’t try it for your sake)
About Muslims accepts Islam because of the 72 virgins !!
(For your info: this was mentioned in one of the hadiths (Prophet sayings) but NOT in the most authentic books Bukhari and Muslim, so we don’t take it as 100% correct, so it may or may not).
Simply, if this is the fact, so why the majority of those who accepts Islam are Women and not MEN ??
Second, talking about inexperienced young women as if they are the only virgins, even men will be virgins too there, as we will be resurrected all as new creations.
About marrying in heaven, YES there will be but nobody knows the form how it will be, similarly for eating and drinking and other of our functions there, didn’t you read in the bible when Jesus asked about life in heaven, how it will be, he said that ”we will be like angels” up there..
Also in Islam, the common between “paradise” and our current life are the names only, means, the fruits exist there and here, but completely different in form, shape, kinds, taste, just only the names are common, the same for women, and men forms..
The most important, that Muslims accepts Islam not because “the women”, because it’s the true religion from God, as example, if someone give you a choice to worship one of the following:
The Creator of whole universe, heavens, Earth and all creatures, or a dead body on cross, or a cow, or elephant or a rat or sleeping statue?
Which one you will accept??
Logically, the Creator and we worship the Creator, the God only.
Please read the following on “Why Islam is different?” it’s very important for you to understand what is the marvelous in our religion:
http://debatewithmuslim.blogspot.com/
Note, you can read “Why Muhammad?” too later on.
continued ..
ReplyDeleteFinally about the heaven, please read the following about the people who will enter the paradise (hope both of us will be there), the first thing that they thank God for are (NOT Women) but that they don’t feel SADNESS anymore, or weariness, toil, jealousy or hatred, these are the most important blessings in Heaven for us, as tired humans for this world..
'Adn (Eden) Paradise (everlasting Gardens) will they enter, therein will they be adorned with bracelets of gold and pearls, and their garments there will be of silk. (33)
And they will say: "All the praises and thanks are to Allâh, Who has removed from us (all) grief. Verily, our Lord is indeed Oft¬Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (good deeds and to recompense). (34)
Who, out of His Grace, has lodged us in a home that will last forever; where, toil will touch us not, nor weariness will touch us." (35)
But those who disbelieve, (in the Oneness of Allâh - Islâmic Monotheism) for them will be the Fire of Hell. Neither will it have a complete killing effect on them so that they die, nor shall its torment be lightened for them. Thus do We requite every disbeliever! (36)
Therein they will cry: "Our Lord! Bring us out, we shall do righteous good deeds, not (the evil deeds) that we used to do." (Allâh will reply): "Did We not give you lives long enough, so that whosoever would receive admonition, could receive it? And the warner came to you. So taste you (the evil of your deeds). For the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong¬doers) there is no helper." (37) [Fatir]
"About Muslims accepts Islam because of the 72 virgins !!"
ReplyDeleteI'm ignoring everything else you've written Abdallah, because it is becoming clear to me that you are not actually reading my posts properly.
Refer back to that paragraph. Here is the pertinent parts that I wrote:
"Consider the claim below. Note that I am not making this claim, I don't accept it and I consider it to be false. But I just want to use it by way of an example.
... offensive claim...
I expect that the above claim would probably bother you - and rightly so. It's prejudiced, insulting, closed-minded, and it divests Muslim men of any sense of intellect or concern for the attainment of objective truth."
I was explicitly clear in my post that I was not making the claim in italics - merely using it as an example. I even pointed out directly in the clearest language possible that I consider the claim to be false.
It's becoming clear that you are not actually reading the words that I am writing.
I'm starting to get very annoyed with you.
I'm trying to have a discussion with you - but the whole point of a discussion is that we take turns listening to one another.
If you won't extend the simple courtesy of listening to me when I'm talking, then we can't have a discussion. I'm not interested in listening to your monologue.
If you're not interested in a discussion, please remove the word 'debate' from your blog as it is highly misleading.
Do you want to have a discussion with me Abdallah?
Or would you prefer me to just leave you alone to rant at a non-existent audience about how closed-minded we nasty, arrogant atheists can be?
Hmm... I just put a post through to you but it didn't show up. I can't see it on the website now, so I'll write it again. I apologize if this turns out to be a double-post.
ReplyDeleteI am trying to have a discussion with you Abdallah. Something of a debate too - but really just a discussion is fine.
However, part of discussion is that the two people having the conversation need to take turns listening to one another.
It is becoming very clear to me that you are not listening to me.
You got very upset with me over the 72-virgins comment - but if you read back over my post, you'll see that I state flat-out that I consider that claim to be false. In my own words:
"Note that I am not making this claim, I don't accept it and I consider it to be false. But I just want to use it by way of an example."
I don't accept the claim that I was using as an example.
I consider it to be false.
I was only using it as an example of a bald, biased, and unacceptably closed-minded claim.
This was very clear from what I had written.
So it is equally clear that you are either not reading what I am writing, or that you are reading it very, very, very selectively.
I'm starting to get very annoyed with you Abdallah.
I would like very much to continue our discussion.
But if you refuse to extend me the simple courtesy of listening to me when I talk, then we cannot have a discussion.
The Muslims that I have discussed religion with in the past have all shared a common set of characteristics:
1) They are rude.
2) They do not listen.
3) They lie. Such Muslims claim they want debate and discussion, but really they want to lecture me while I sit quietly and nod.
I neither accept nor claim that this represents all Muslims. It just represents the small and very narrow cross-section of Mulsims that I have engaged with in conversation about this topic.
All the same, it has not been a particularly encouraging set of experiences, and it has not left me with a particularly stellar opinion of Islam - and you're definitely not helping matters.
You have been deeply insulting to me in the prejudice you have stated towards atheists, and when I attempted to address this issue you have rudely refused to listen to what I have to say.
I might be able to forgive all of this if your argument was strong - after all, politeness is not a measure of truth. But your argument is not strong, it has deep problems, you are stating facts that are not facts, and your claims are unsupported by any evidence.
In short, you're doing a very, very bad job of representing Islam, Abdallah. I am extremely annoyed with you right now.
That said, I still want to continue our discussion. However, for this to happen I have to have your assurance that you will actually listen to me when I talk.
I would also like you to acknowledge two facts so far that you have failed to remark upon:
1) Dr. Duncan MacDougall's research should be dismissed as unsound.
2) Your attempt to inform me - an atheist - about why atheists refuse to believe, was prejudiced and insulting and without intellectual merit.
I look forward to your response.
Dear Daniel,
ReplyDeleteThere is no need to be annoyed from my reply, I consider you a friend and hope you are too, and I am NOT mad from the claim above, we “muslims” hear such things always and always, even much worse..
I understand my friend that it’s NOT your claim, and if you review my comments, you will notice that I replied on “your Theory” and “About the Claim”, where clearly I meant it’s not yours, else I would say “YOUR claim” which I didn’t.
About my previous reply, it was of 2 parts: one for the Spirit issue, and what I replied is enough for me to defeat the claim that Spirit is only brain function, for me this is the output of brain being operated by the spirit, like: CPU + Elec. Power = CPU Function, and it’s not the input.
If this didn’t convince you, please explain WHY so we can discuss it more.
About “the virgins claim”, although I understand that it’s NOT your claim, but it’s important to me as muslim to clarify this point for you and anyone who hear such claim, and defend Muslims by understanding that Islam religion is not a collection of shallow and basic beliefs, it’s really a system for life and not an ordinary system but the best ever, set by God and not by humans.
About comments not appearing, I don’t have such experience in blogger yet, but I found them in “spam page”, I don’t know why?
I published them again, please feel free to comment as much as you want, anytime, and forgive me my delay, but maybe because time difference, I am not able to reply at once.
Note, I wish that you read part 3 of this post (World of Spirits) and have your opinion too, if possible.
Thanks,
Just I want to summarize my points one by one, so to clear any miscommunications between us:
1- I am not mad and I am happy discussing with you, hope you are too.
2- I am not offended by any claim, especially the above one, and I understand that it’s NOT your claim.
3- I thought that I replied about the spirit issue, if didn’t convince you, please tell me WHY.
4- About the claim, it’s important to me to clarify it to you and others, although you didn’t mean it, but I don’t want it to be stuck in any readers’ memory without any reply.
5- Please feel free to comment as much as you want on any subject, anytime, anywhere, and I am really enjoying.
Best regards,